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A question for rules experts!!!
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| the-shark |
Posted on 07-10-2012 18:41
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the fact is once the foul had happened no one was really sure what to do next so thats when after talking to both players and team secs and ref a re rack was decided upon and agreed by all.if anyone had a problem with that they could have said but no one did so the match continued in a civil manner. and for your wisdom jacko once foul was pointed out the player was well aware of his mistake but i dont see how this makes it cheating as you put it? i call it an honest mistake! and brooker i make you spot on with your post fella... .
we may need a bigger boat..! |
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| longshanks |
Posted on 07-10-2012 20:18
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Brooker is spot on.
But I thought you would know the rules by now, Sharky. |
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| jacko |
Posted on 08-10-2012 01:56
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Must Get Out More
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i dont mean it ina nasty way but surely if u play a foul shot n dont giv ur opponant 2shots that is kinda cheating is it not...im not saying it woz delibrate as there woz sum confusion n yes m8 i av much wisdom n morals...play by the rules during each frame(even if sum seem harsh) n this game is simple n we wont get any arguments or bad feelings...i promise u im not avin a dig at any1 but just use the rules correctly n there aint no hassle is there  |
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| the-shark |
Posted on 08-10-2012 16:36
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thing is jacko even jason cook who has been a ref at semis and finals for many years was unsure what to do so you can hopefully see the dilemma...and as for me once a foul was called i didnt have a clue what was going on so was quite happy to let the team secs and ref make the decision they felt was right in the circumstances for right or wrong. but apology accepted and i do see your point of view.
we may need a bigger boat..! |
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| TB |
Posted on 08-10-2012 17:06
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Quite The Regular
Posts: 103
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Rule 60 of our general playing procedures states:
"All fouls must be called by the referees only unless the player addressing the table calls his/her own foul."
Given that the refereee(s) had agreed that the Shark could play a nominated ball and the Shark clearly wasn't going to call a foul on himself because until the error had been pointed out by Statto he was unaware of the problem the fairest thing to do seemed to be to agree that the frame be re-started from scratch. |
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| Brooker |
Posted on 08-10-2012 18:34
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"All fouls must be called by the referees only unless the player addressing the table calls his/her own foul."
This would suggest that if a player fouls & he knows he has fouled & everyone watching the game knows he has fouled, apart from the referee's who don't see it so don't call it.
The player can then carry on without calling a foul on himself. This is not breaking the rules, it only states that all fouls must be called by the referre only, unless the player calls it on himself, it doesn't state the player "must" call it on himself.
If i won a game like this & then said to my opponent you should know the rules, i don't have to call a foul on myself & as long as the referee's don't see it & call it i can carry on.
Would this make winning the frame ok, because i haven't broken the rules.
Answer is NO
I should call the foul on myself because it's the fair, sporting & gentlemanly thing to do, & i think the same would have applied to advise the player he couldn't play the shot he stated before he played it in the scenario in this thread.
I would rather be playing golf |
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| RasFas |
Posted on 08-10-2012 20:05
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I think the point some people are missing is that player 2 COULD play the shot he nominated. It's a straighforward DF! The referee, or indeed anyone else, can't tell a player not to play a DF. The fact that he chose to announce it is irrelevant.
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| RasFas |
Posted on 08-10-2012 20:11
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I think the point some people are missing is that player 2 COULD play the shot he nominated. It's a straighforward DF! The referee, or indeed anyone else, can't tell a player not to play a DF. The fact that he chose to announce it is irrelevant.
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| Bink286 |
Posted on 09-10-2012 18:19
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Getting The Hang Of It
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Statto wrote:
we had a situation in our match that no-one had encountered before....
Player one pots one of his balls, but also pots one of player 2's balls, and leaves a foul snooker. Player 2 asks correctly for a foul snooker, and takes a pick up. The cue ball goes behind the baulk line, and player 2 nominates one of player 1's balls. The referee concurs. After playing the shot (the ball was potted), the referee realises that it was a foul shot, as Player 2 was not foul snookered after the pick up.
What should happen next, and why???
When there is a definitive answer, I will give my opinion on what should have happened, and what did actually happen...
Player one pots one of his balls, but also pots one of player 2's balls, and leaves a foul snooker. Player 2 asks correctly for a foul snooker, and takes a pick up.
No problem.
The cue ball goes behind the baulk line, and player 2 nominates one of player 1's balls.
Player 2 needs to ask for a foul snooker, before nominating a ball. Nominating a ball without requesting a foul snooker from behind the baulk line is a player error, not a referee error.
The referee here can acknowledge the nomination, but has not been asked to make a ruling as to whether the player is still foul snookered.
Had the referee made an incorrect call, and the balls could not be replaced to where they were before that error, then a re-rack might have been appropriate, but in this case the referee simply agreed that the player had nominated a ball, which was not an error as such. |
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| Statto |
Posted on 09-10-2012 21:15
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A lot of debate has occurred since I last looked at this thread, having believed my last post would close it....how wrong could I be???
I will run through the scenario again for everyone's benefit...I play a shot which accidentally ends up leaving a foul snooker....Andy Bentley correctly asks for it, and asks for a pick up...he puts the cue ball behind the baulk line and nominates one of my balls WITHOUT asking again for a foul snooker. Steve Izatt (my team secretary) repeats the call. Andy plays the shot, and a few seconds later the penny drops with Steve that Andy has made a foul, and this is where the confusion started...
Steve believes that by repeating Andy's call he is confirming that it is a legal shot, and believes that it is his fault Andy has played a foul. I state that it should be a straight two shots for the foul (and the balls are available to clear), however Steve's misplaced guilt has already prompted him to offer the re-rack...in terms of the decision making process I am in a minority of 1, so there is no point me continuing the debate. Steve offered a re-rack which Tony Baker readily accepted (you don't look a gift horse in the mouth!), so there was the agreement...
In short, I was screwed over (not deliberately!!!) by my team secretary, there was no cheating by anyone, despite the fact it was very advantageous for Andy to have a re-rack...as for advising the mistake, Steve didn't realise till after the shot was played, and if you have to start helping someone with Andy's ability and experience, you might as well remove the coaching rule....
There are no sour grapes here, just wanting to be sure that my confidence in being right was not misplaced...and it wasn't!!" |
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| Big Ben Ten |
Posted on 09-10-2012 23:03
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The only way to resolve this is to find out what the correct call from a ref would be if someone says "ill nominate that as my free ball" before he calls a foul snooker. If the correct call is "yes, ok" then you should of had two shots. If it is anything else then it is refereeing error and a re-rack/re positioning should happen.
Perhaps you should of had two shots but if the same issue comes again in our league i'd vote for a re-rack again whatever the right choice.
Edited by Big Ben Ten on 09-10-2012 23:04
LangleySports |
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| nuttmeg |
Posted on 09-10-2012 23:09
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It has always annoyed me,that the rules are so rigid,if I see an opponent getting down to take a shot at the start of a game,more often than not I will whisper in his ear "nominate". What the fcuk does it matter if you say foul snooker or any other derivation if everybody knows what you mean.This game meant to be fun and it used to be about potting balls,now its about rigid rules and terminology. Having said that if an experienced side like the Cuemasters forget to nominate tonight I will be shouting at the ref like a Sri Lankan spinner on Methadone.Ps Paul is right its a foul. |
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| jacko |
Posted on 10-10-2012 05:35
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think rasfas n bink av hit the nail on the ed....hope wer all a bit wiser from now on in n every1 nos u av2 make the correct calls or sadly the rules may bite ur arse...we all wana just play pool but we must abide by the rules once the frame as begun |
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| Statto |
Posted on 10-10-2012 07:25
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Big Ben Ten wrote:
The only way to resolve this is to find out what the correct call from a ref would be if someone says "ill nominate that as my free ball" before he calls a foul snooker. If the correct call is "yes, ok" then you should of had two shots. If it is anything else then it is refereeing error and a re-rack/re positioning should happen.
Perhaps you should of had two shots but if the same issue comes again in our league i'd vote for a re-rack again whatever the right choice.
Understand where you are coming from Ben, but the rules make it quite clear that it is the player's responsibility to make the correct call...the referee is in no-man's land if the player makes a wrong call...if he tells him it is a wrong call, then it could be called coaching...even if I was refereeing the singles final and that situation arose, the only safe course of action for a referee is to acknowledge the call, and then call the foul afterwards...the player cannot complain as he has not made the correct call... |
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| longshanks |
Posted on 10-10-2012 16:15
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But the ref was from the opposition so it is'nt coaching. |
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| the-shark |
Posted on 10-10-2012 17:58
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true point mr shanks but whats done is done and now we are all a bit more wiser through this experience..
we may need a bigger boat..! |
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| lakeball |
Posted on 10-10-2012 19:21
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Just Popping In
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if you want a qualified refs opinion...
once the ball is in hand and the player asks for a foul snooker, if the ref agrees it and there are NO objections, then it stands whatever the outcome. the player continues with his visits. if the opposition knows it will be a foul and keeps quiet hoping for an advantage then they are too late, it must be called BEFORE the shot is played. IF THE REF SPOTS HIS MISTAKE OR IS ADVISED BEFORE THE SHOT IS PLAYED THEN THE REF CAN CHANGE HIS CALL, fouls cannot be backdated. in this instance as no-one knows any rules, you could have re-racked, -same player breaks as if the frame never happened, OR replace the balls to their positions because one player may not want a re-rack and lose any advantage, this way if a player knowingly fouled or diddnt call knowing the rules were wrong they would not benefit. |
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| longshanks |
Posted on 10-10-2012 21:31
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the-shark wrote:
true point mr shanks but whats done is done and now we are all a bit more wiser through this experience..
Everyone knows you're a cheat, just that you got caught for once. |
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| RasFas |
Posted on 10-10-2012 21:42
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lol @Lakeball. Have you actually read ANY of this thread? |
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| the-shark |
Posted on 10-10-2012 23:12
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That's not nice shanks...ps how was ur match against the eagles last night.?  lol
we may need a bigger boat..! |
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