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A question for rules experts!!!
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| Statto |
Posted on 03-10-2012 06:38
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we had a situation in our match that no-one had encountered before....
Player one pots one of his balls, but also pots one of player 2's balls, and leaves a foul snooker. Player 2 asks correctly for a foul snooker, and takes a pick up. The cue ball goes behind the baulk line, and player 2 nominates one of player 1's balls. The referee concurs. After playing the shot (the ball was potted), the referee realises that it was a foul shot, as Player 2 was not foul snookered after the pick up.
What should happen next, and why???
When there is a definitive answer, I will give my opinion on what should have happened, and what did actually happen... |
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| Triple C |
Posted on 03-10-2012 07:29
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Its a foul... 2 shots to the other player... simples |
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| big rich |
Posted on 03-10-2012 08:34
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in my humble opinion because the ref has told the player he concurs then it depends on if player one knew what was happining then he should of intervened and told the ref if he didnt then think it sould be a re rack
but that is my very humble opinion  |
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| Triple C |
Posted on 03-10-2012 09:39
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The ref is there for guidance... Its up to the player what shots / decisions they make otherwise its coaching.
You could say that the other player should step in but then what would be the point of competition play then? If the player doesn't know the rules by now then they should ask before hand.
Edited by Triple C on 03-10-2012 09:39 |
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| Big Ben Ten |
Posted on 03-10-2012 15:18
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andy said i nominate that as my ball. the referee should have just said no. However the referee said yes. Its not really a question about the rules, its a question about what do you do when the refs *******ed up the rules. The fact that the ref said "yes" means that you can't call the foul on him triple c. Common sense prevailed and the frame was re racked. This is what would happen in a professional game however it wouldnt happen with a professional ref.
LangleySports |
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| Triple C |
Posted on 03-10-2012 15:28
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The ref cannot simply say no as this would be coaching and would be unfair to his opponent.
It seems in this case the ref also forgot the rules and so admitted this. However, if i'd been reffing the game and same situation happened then I would have called a foul as I know the rules and again cannot tell a player what to do or what calls to make.
Make sense? Writing it always seems more long winded! LOL |
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| Triple C |
Posted on 03-10-2012 15:39
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1 question... After the ball was picked up originally for the foul snooker, did the player ask or say 'foul snooker' again?
Edited by Triple C on 03-10-2012 16:01 |
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| Big Ben Ten |
Posted on 03-10-2012 16:18
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No he just said ill nominate that ball to which the ref said yes. And you say the ref cant say no, ofcourse he can if a players asking a legitimate question, hes not asking about the rules. If you ask for a total snooker the ref isn't coaching by saying no. And at the same time if the ref says something is a total snooker and the player doesn't hit a cushion the ref cant retrospectivly say "actually i made a mistake, that wasn't a foul snooker".
Edited by Big Ben Ten on 03-10-2012 16:19
LangleySports |
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| Triple C |
Posted on 03-10-2012 16:33
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Yes but unfortunately once he played the shot its still a foul which ever way you look at it, I guess I had to be there to judge it fully... |
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| Statto |
Posted on 04-10-2012 03:04
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Big Ben Ten wrote:
No he just said ill nominate that ball to which the ref said yes.
Said, not asked....
And you say the ref cant say no, ofcourse he can if a players asking a legitimate question, hes not asking about the rules.
but he didn't...see comment above....
If you ask for a total snooker the ref isn't coaching by saying no. And at the same time if the ref says something is a total snooker and the player doesn't hit a cushion the ref cant retrospectivly say "actually i made a mistake, that wasn't a foul snooker".
Again, you refer to questions asked, which would be fine if a question had actually been asked...by your own admission he said "I'll nominate..." That is a statement, not a question.... |
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| Big Ben Ten |
Posted on 04-10-2012 04:17
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Statto wrote:
Big Ben Ten wrote:
No he just said ill nominate that ball to which the ref said yes.
Said, not asked....
And you say the ref cant say no, ofcourse he can if a players asking a legitimate question, hes not asking about the rules.
but he didn't...see comment above....
If you ask for a total snooker the ref isn't coaching by saying no. And at the same time if the ref says something is a total snooker and the player doesn't hit a cushion the ref cant retrospectivly say "actually i made a mistake, that wasn't a foul snooker".
Again, you refer to questions asked, which would be fine if a question had actually been asked...by your own admission he said "I'll nominate..." That is a statement, not a question....
No need for the ref to say yes then if he wasn't being asked a question.....in a friendly league I think the correct decision was made by the secs. With a professional ref it wouldn't have happened and I doubt you would have got back to the table.
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| qwerty |
Posted on 04-10-2012 06:10
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here's one for ya which actually happened in my singles semi final match, i played a deliberate foul and left my opponent in a foul snooker to which my he simply asked to pick up the white without stating it was a foul snooker, the ref has then looked at him and said sorry i cant do that which then prompted my opponent to start thinking about what he needed to say so he could pick up the white. After several attempts he finally got the wording right to which the ref allowed him to pick up the ball... Surely this is coaching, in my eyes the ref should should have picked up the ball to the players request then once the player had struck the ball called a foul as he did not call a foul snooker.. am i right or wrong?...
WHY SO SERIOUS? |
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| Viper |
Posted on 04-10-2012 15:05
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peter@refugees wrote:
There are so many players who dont know the rules and just hope to fumble their way through.It is upto their capt/ sec to make this very clear before every game so they cannot make a mistake.
Last season I played Mark Halsey he didnt nominate off the break even he forgot the rules lmao.
Be lucky  and what makes you think that i know the Rules in the first place Peter .... lol. When I last played competitive pool in this league back in 2002 we was playing the old epa rules so after a 10 year break and coming back into competitive play I'm like a new boy on the block and learning the world rules, but thanks for sharing that info re our match lol lol |
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| Statto |
Posted on 05-10-2012 01:30
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ok...guess I have to come clean...I tried to keep this anonymous so that all opinions were objective, unfortunately Ben has let the cat out of the bag....therefore I can confirm that I was player 1, Ben's team mate Andy Bentley was player 2, and our team secretary, Steve Izatt was the referee...
There have been a lot of good posts on here to give me food for thought, although I think Ben's argument has flawed logic, and appears to me to be based on the "you agreed - it's fair - it's right - you lost - stop bitching and get over it" approach. Yes I did agree at the time, and nothing I do or say will change what happened. The intention when opening this debate was to be able to give a clear and definitive answer should it ever happen again, and hopefully to expand the knowledge of other site users.
Our league rules make it quite clear that the onus is on the player to make the correct call - not the referee -, which clearly did not happen in this case. However, the issue is clouded by the fact that Steve feels he has given Andy the wrong guidance and feels partly responsible. I would actually suggest he has done the right thing. A statement was made to him and he confirmed the statement for all watching (thus confirming he has heard the player call), in the same way that he would do when a player nominates colours when after potting from the break. To have said anything contrary would have given Andy the idea he was doing the wrong thing, and is therefore coaching.
If Andy had just got down and played the shot without saying anything, the penalty would have been two shots, so why should it change just because he told Steve he was playing the wrong shot?
Therefore, unless someone can provide a compelling argument to the contrary, the next time this occurs I will be advising "foul, two visits to the oncoming player", WHOEVER the participants may be.
Thank you all for your input. |
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| Rainbow |
Posted on 05-10-2012 23:41
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We play in a game that is 'by-n-large' an amature sport, so the refs are also amature, we should play the game in a good spirit nature, in my opinion, if a player doesn't know the rules, explain them to him! Coaching, please,..behave, the best thing in these instances is common sense, if you really need the rules to come to your rescue in a game at this level, your really not as good as you thought you were!
Rainbow
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| jacko |
Posted on 06-10-2012 04:26
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i do not claim to no the rules but i would say logic dictates that a foul isa foul irrregardless ov whether the ref as not helped matters,surely player 2 has fouled n player 1 gets 2shots |
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| Teach |
Posted on 06-10-2012 15:10
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Ok... just to clarify something.... perhaps slightly different....
Player 1 fouls and leaves a foul snooker. Player two asks for the cue ball or says 'free ball' without asking for a 'foul snooker'. Does the ref hesitate and say 'can't do that'. Or does the ref do as been asked and then call a foul. If the second one.... at what point does the ref call foul...
Sorry if this has been answered already... got a little lost in the post above lol. The whole area though is rather grey and perhaps needs clarifying.
Knockout Cup Winners 2011, 2014 
Division One Summer Champs 2011, 2012, 2015 |
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| Brooker |
Posted on 06-10-2012 23:28
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In my opinion the only common sense post on this thread was made by rainbow.
It's just a game
Yeah everyone should know the rules, but not everyone takes it so serious & so are a little vague on the rules.
When the guy playing the shot said "i nominate that ball" & the ref didn't stop him, anyone else from the other team watching could have simply stepped in & advised the player he couldn't do that as it was no longer a foul snooker after he had picked up the ball. This would have been the sporting & friendly thing to do & then the player could have continued by playing a legal shot & the game could have continued.
Why did everyone just stand there & let it happen, do you people really want to win a game of pool like that ?
I find it all a little sad to be honest, thought this was a gentlemens pool league.
I would rather be playing golf |
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| jacko |
Posted on 07-10-2012 16:53
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i believe the rules r there to stop arguements n yes chris we all no wat the gentlemanly things r but m8 its down to each player to no the rules n call a foul upon his self if he as committed 1 n if he as accidently done 1 then ITS STIL A FOUL so dont argue accept it learn the rules..if ur excuse is that u dont no the rules then ur askin for others to turn a blind eye while u actually cheat..its down to each player to not b so lazy n learn the rules then none ov this would happen,the ref is there to call fouls but many times players call them on themselves,in this case there woz clearly sum confusions but a player as not played by the rules n as committed a foul so put ur hands up accept it n ul no better next time....a foul is a foul |
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| jacko |
Posted on 07-10-2012 17:42
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like i said earlier i do not claim to no the rules but i believe i no most if not all,if i wer player 2 i would ov accepted id failed to make the correct calls n given player1 2shots,i actually think player1 as the right to b pisd off as hes gone from avin 2 shots to avin to re-rack the frame bcoz his opponant as played a foul shot n not accepted it...sori to say this but player2 as actually cheated,by not accepting hes fouled... |
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