---

We all know this is only a trial, but if this is to be voted in at the AGM as an ongoing format, there needs to be a little clarification. I know Danny did a lot of hard work in setting this up in the first place, but action has shown a few little wrinkles that can be ironed out.....and as the AGM is only 2 monthe away, it's worth sorting sooner rather than later....

If I had a vote, I would bring this format in, but with the following amendments....

1. No player can play twice until all other players have played once. As soon as a name appears twice, all subsequent names must also be playing their second frame. Penalty if this is broken - 2 point deduction (reason - playing order can have a knock-on effect if you are picking players to win frames against particular opponents)

2. Players cannot play each other twice. It would be the responsibility of the away secretary/captain to ensure this, thus negating the need for a specific playing order to be adhered to. Penalty if this is broken - 1 point deduction per duplication - i.e. if two players play each other twice, 2 point deduction for the away team (reason - if the secretary/captain cannot read the card put in front of him, what is he doing picking the team???)

I'm not saying that this is the perfect solution, and others will have their own views, but let's get this ironed out early to minimise debate at the AGM....

---

1. What a load of old doo doos! Kyle turned up for us last night to stop us being short of players, but could only get there late and didn't want to stay due to other plans, so he played 5 & 6. Nowt wrong with that. Home team have always had to put their team down first anyway, so the away team have the opportunity to handpick who plays who. I don't really understand this amendment - maybe it's because it's late and i'm tired.

2. Definately. My understanding was that it shouldn't happen anyway and what with Mr Halseys post on here a little while ago relaxing the order of players in the second set of 5 saying that if it happens he'll let it go for now, but it really SHOULDN'T happen, I don't see why people would do it. It's so easily avoided and completely pointless.

---

Jason, I appreciate what you are trying to say in Point 1 of your statement but the part about point deductions is a bit ott. If we are going to adopt this playing format for the Winter (sets of 5) then I see a simple solution for it to work.

1 - No player plays twice between 1 & 5
2 - Do away with the 2nd set match numbers (ie: 2nd set to be numbered 6-10).
3 - Do away with the statement that nobody playes each other twice.

If Team Secretary's/Captains want to play a 1-5 player twice before other players have played their first frame because a player has to leave early or a player cannot turn up until later on in the match then why not.

I think the above covers a multitude of sins and I would welcome comments.

---

You've hit the nail on the head there and I am sure I speak for the concensus in saying that those were the three things to come out as being the logical amendments . .

---

Make it best of 9 so there is a winner, but do away with the 2 points for the win.

Well, theres my thoughts. Im going to have a kip now!

---

10's good, no bonus points required as a win is worth 2 points anyway!

---

I remember an instance with the old rules where Sarah King was picked again and got dished twice without playing a shot. It would be even more annoying if this happened with the same players involved.

---

I make you right on this one

---

You can always add an appendix by stating "Players should refrain from playing the same opponent twice if it can be avoided"

---

There is 7 weeks before the AGM Agenda is circulated to get this current Playing Format revised if you want it to proceed.

---

I was on the understanding that this was only going to format change was only for the Summer :?:

---

It was a trial.

It pretty much seems to be working, so why not do it for the winter as well?!

---

It makes no odds to me but the proposal was for it to be trialled throughout the Summer 2008 season and then look for it to be introduced for the 2009/2010 Winter Season should the trial be successful . .

I personally think the format has been well received and there should be no reason why the results so far can't form a proposal for it to be brought into the forthcoming 2008/2009 Winter Season but the problem is that I am sure everyone else doesn't share my thoughts . .

---

I would be a fan of getting it in place for the forth coming Winter Season, but I was of the understanding that it is now too late for that?

---

The forms have gone out based on 7 player teams . .

---

If people are worried about getting a draw after 10 frames we could have an 11th frame but instead of getting two points for a win you'd only get the one, like you do in ice hockey if it goes into overtime... or winner still gets two but losing team get one for forcing the 11th frame...

---

I don't understand the neccesity for a win. Sometimes a draw is the fairest option and should be a possiblility. If you truly deserve the win, it shouldn't get anywhere near the 5 all.

In my humble, rubbish opinion that is! :)

---

Typical woman comment! :razz:

---

I am all for the new format as it is working well all round really but the only problem that has arisen of late is players playing the same player twice.
As we all know this is easily rectified by team captains reading the order of play and swapping players so they don't meet again. did

I also now that this has been mentioned before and thought it was dead and buried but having been approached by a few people telling me that this is a better idea than just frames I will try to demonstrate
what this method of scoring will do to div 5 if it was implimented.

The current league standings for div 5 is:

P W L F A Pts
crouching chicken H.P 6 5 1 47 13 47
the better halfs 6 4 1 42 18 42
Duke of gloucester 6 3 0 42 18 42
jolly sailor 6 5 0 38 22 38
suzy's floozies 6 2 2 32 28 32
royal joakers 6 2 3 28 32 28
thicket tavern 6 2 3 28 32 28
rusking house club 6 1 5 23 37 23
the waddon b 6 1 4 20 40 20

If the scoring reverted too 3Pts per win and 1Pt per Draw
the league table would look like this.

P W D L F A Pts
Jolly Sailor 6 5 1 0 38 22 16
Crouching Chicken HP 6 5 0 1 47 13 15
Better Halfs 6 4 1 1 42 18 13
Duke of Gloucester 6 3 0 3 42 18 9
Suzy's Floozies 6 2 2 2 32 28 8
Royal Joakers 6 2 1 3 28 32 7
Thicket Tavern 6 2 1 3 28 32 7
Waddon "B" 6 1 1 4 20 40 4
Ruskin House Club 6 1 0 5 23 37 3


As you all can clearly see that the Jolly Sailor then goes from 4th spot to 1st having played 6 games won 5 and drew 1. being 4th on the pts system and the new format really doesn't warrant them being in that position.

For the reasons above I would like to see the new Pts system implimented into the winter league if the format we are playing now is introduced into the winter 2008/09.

---

I understand that this would make it closer from the table standings point of view, but this could technically defeat the object of the 10 frame format cos once a team hits 6 frames thay will have the win. I like the fact that every frame counts in the current format.

---

The point I am trying to make is that if a team is winning say 6-4 most games and have not lost, and another team has lost 1 game, but winning by a bigger margin. Why should the Jolly be on the backfoot when they haven't lost yet.

I am only using the Jolly as an example there are other teams in the same position as the Jolly in other divisions.

---

Have frames won and the 2 bonus points not contributed to the winners of any division in previous years then or am i mistaken,why cant people just adjust to currant format and stop bitching about it.Its like saying if my aunty had bollocks shed be my uncle just because the jolly havent lost a game and we have y shouldnt we be top as we have a better frames for average than them and if they got the 1 extra point for there draw they would still be miles behind!!!!!!

---

Ezactly

The better teams still win and the rubbish ones still get slapped regardless of how many bonus points, frames won, stitch one pearl one or any other format . .

---

If they're deserving of the first place spot, they would have won more frames. Every team plays the same teams in its division, so no-one has any advantage in that respect.

Why SHOULD The Jolly (for example) be top if they're scraping wins each week? It certainly wouldn't make them as deserving as a team winning 9-1 and 8-2 in the vast majority of weeks. And if they ARE as good, then when they meet the teams above them, then no doubt they will beat them and therefore change the order of the League.

The better teams will win. And the reason CCHP are doing so well is because we only have one player who actually gives a shit about winning - the rest of us play for a night out and to have a laugh, the way it should be.

Maybe more teams should try it and maybe they'd start doing well also. The one match we've lost so far this season was against The Jolly and was by far the best match we've played in - the lads are brilliant and it was a really good night. Are they better than us? No. Were they better than us that night? Yes - definately! Regardless of our team being short and having to give them frames and the fact that Barrie Allen went in-off the black and I played my black with my cue behind my back (and missed it!!), they deserved the win entirely.

They're the most sporting and funniest team in that Division by a country mile (that we've seen so far) and I hope they do really well - if they really are better than our team, then they'll start winning by bigger margins and overtake us.

I personally hope they do, coz it'd be funny to watch Saxton spontaneously combust in rage!! :mad:

---

Its only too late when the AGM has been and gone ..... proposals for the AGM in September should be submitted before August 22nd

---

When applications are sent out there is never any mention of Playing Formats only an example of how many matches and comps there are.

---

This is the sort of reply I actually expected.

If other sports went on frames won goals scored plus bonuses for the win. Teams like Man Utd would walk the premier league,whereas with the pts system the way it is always make interesting viewing and gives the premier a much closer contest.

What is so wrong with the 3Pts per win 1Pt per draw system being introduced.:bite:
I think that it would make teams a little more competitive and make all divisions a lot closer than at present.

It doesn't even matter whether the jolly are a better team or not compared to CCHP if they win they deserve a lot more than being 4TH.
:angel::mad:

---

Angles,

Put your idea into a proposal and see how you get on at the AGM ... you can always incorporate the frames won & lost as the first point of call in case of a tie situation at the end of the season (as per goal difference in football) and then use wins & losses if frames won/lost are also of an equal nature.

---

Thankyou deutch.:clap::clap:

---

Angles,

If you put together a decent proposal, i might second it...Might!

---

Cheers Harry I am down suzy Q's tomorrow night if you can pop in.:drunk::drunk::drunk:

---

I will try mate.

Busy week ahead for me!

---

angles, it's all very well saying 3pts for a win & 1 pt for a draw makes leagues tighter however when it gets to the end of the season it becomes impossible to close the gap whereas the way it is now a 10 point gaps isn't safe in the last game... it keeps the league more open right to the death, is more exciting and keeps more teams interested

---

Your post still does not warrant not playing for pts, As frames would only come into it if at the end of the season 2 teams are level on pts.

Teams and players will all want to win Games/frames for their team m8s whether they are winning or losing the match as a draw would win them a point or ranking pts in the winter league, so I can't really see players not bothering to try and make the games closer,if a team as already reached a match winning figure.
Every team will lose games or even draw games in the winter league which again will make it exciting and close.

---

Firstly Angles, you don't get points for frames won AND points for the win as previously posted. That would be silly. And in your scenario with Man Utd, if teams actually got points for their goals scored, then losing out to Man Utd 3-2 after they score a 97th minute winner would be a little easier to swallow, because they'd only drop 1 point to them. . . If Man Utd win 5-0, then they were clearly the best team and deserve those points. :)

How can a team which is scraping wins and drawing matches be deserving of a higher place in the League than a team winning 9-1 and 8-2? And as Andy says, with the format being set at 3pts a win and 1 point a draw, the stronger teams will end up streets ahead of the weaker teams, who'll probably be sick of having 0 points on the board and have the problem of players simply not bothering to turn up anymore.

I thought the emphasis was to interest more teams - not make the gap even bigger between the 'bigger' teams and 'smaller' teams.

Again, as Deutch says, the voting members will decide at an AGM if someone put in a decent proposal. Makes no odds to me how it's done! It'll be interesting at the end of this season to work out the Divisions from both scenarios to find out exactly how much difference both systems make. I suspect there won't be a lot . .

Just for the record, if people who think the 3pt win & 1pt draw had actually ATTENDED the last AGM when this format was bought in and bought this up, then it could have been amended there and then had the members thought it was a good idea. Just goes to show the importance of turning up to these meetings, doesn't it. :)

---

I have taken everything you have said on board.
I have never mentioned pts per frames won and 3pts.
the senario is if a team wins 6-4 they will receive 3pts for the win.
the frames won and lost will show up in the for and against column.

so the league result sheet will look like this.

P W D L F A PTS
1 1 0 0 6 4 3

As you say it will be interesting how much of a difference this scoring system may effect the out-come come the end of the league.
So until then I will hold fire on the proposal.

---

Angles, if you think the 3pt/1pt system is a better/fairer way of doing things, then put the proposal in. It will get voted in if the members think it is the best way of doing things.

---

I haven't said the pts system we are using now is not fair and I certainly haven't said 3pt/1pt is better.

The point I am trying to make is the the 3Pt/1Pt system may fair a bit more favourable to teams that win by maybe a small margin or even draw.
Which is why I used the jolly Sailor as an example.

What I think maybe would be a good idea is that maybe/perhaps it could be introduced into either this winter league or next summer as a trial run to see how it pans out, If teams do like Idea /not like the idea it could be voted in or out.

Obviously it will need a proposal first for the trial period/season.
It may even work best for the winter as it is a longer season.

---

Could you please explain your theory as to why a team who draw matches or win by a small margin should be ahead of a team who win their matches by a larger margin and have lost one? I'm just curious.

I would also just like to point out that The Jolly Sailor are the
only team in the top 4 of Division 5 who are yet to receive their BYE and the ten points which go with it.

I think that makes a difference as to why they are currently lying in 4th. We'll see when they get their BYE in 3 weeks.

---

If you are suggesting 3 points for a win and 1 for a draw and no points for frames won then personally I would be totally against the proposal. Once one team reached 6 the remaining games would be dead, despite the faint glimmer that 'frame difference' will determine placings in the event of points being level. I think it is fundamental to league matches that every frame should count.

---

Given the fact that most divisions in the winter are stronger than the summer, I think you will find that on the ten frame format score will be a bit tighter than people anticipate.
Unless a team has a mare of a match.

Plus the added fact that ranking pts will play a part in the winter league.
So can't really see teams not bothering with remaining games when a team reaches the magical 6.

---

but your second game doesn't count toward your rankings does it? so the last few games won't matter at all if the team has reached 6 and players are playing twice.

---

That is the clincher really. With a 3pt system the league could effectively be won by a team of 3 players who never lose but forfeit 4 frames every match. A team who wins 10-0 every week but lose 6-4 to that team would come 2nd. If that seems fair to you then propose away but I shall be advising my secretary to vote against it.

---

The idea was an OK sought of one to mull over and ponder but reading the previous couple of comments I don't think somehow this would be passed if it ever came to a proposal stage.

---

During all my many posts on this subject I have been looking for reasons as to why this wouldn't work and these seem to be the most viable.

So at this point I will :surrender: to your words of wisdom and call the subject CLOSED.

I would like to thank everyone who took time out in posting their views on this thread and everything that has been mentioned was taken on board.