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we had a situation in our match that no-one had encountered before....

Player one pots one of his balls, but also pots one of player 2's balls, and leaves a foul snooker. Player 2 asks correctly for a foul snooker, and takes a pick up. The cue ball goes behind the baulk line, and player 2 nominates one of player 1's balls. The referee concurs. After playing the shot (the ball was potted), the referee realises that it was a foul shot, as Player 2 was not foul snookered after the pick up.

What should happen next, and why???

When there is a definitive answer, I will give my opinion on what should have happened, and what did actually happen...

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Its a foul... 2 shots to the other player... simples

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in my humble opinion because the ref has told the player he concurs then it depends on if player one knew what was happining then he should of intervened and told the ref if he didnt then think it sould be a re rack

but that is my very humble opinion :fish:

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The ref is there for guidance... Its up to the player what shots / decisions they make otherwise its coaching.

You could say that the other player should step in but then what would be the point of competition play then? If the player doesn't know the rules by now then they should ask before hand.

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andy said i nominate that as my ball. the referee should have just said no. However the referee said yes. Its not really a question about the rules, its a question about what do you do when the refs *******ed up the rules. The fact that the ref said "yes" means that you can't call the foul on him triple c. Common sense prevailed and the frame was re racked. This is what would happen in a professional game however it wouldnt happen with a professional ref.

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The ref cannot simply say no as this would be coaching and would be unfair to his opponent.

It seems in this case the ref also forgot the rules and so admitted this. However, if i'd been reffing the game and same situation happened then I would have called a foul as I know the rules and again cannot tell a player what to do or what calls to make.

Make sense? Writing it always seems more long winded! LOL

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1 question... After the ball was picked up originally for the foul snooker, did the player ask or say 'foul snooker' again?

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No he just said ill nominate that ball to which the ref said yes. And you say the ref cant say no, ofcourse he can if a players asking a legitimate question, hes not asking about the rules. If you ask for a total snooker the ref isn't coaching by saying no. And at the same time if the ref says something is a total snooker and the player doesn't hit a cushion the ref cant retrospectivly say "actually i made a mistake, that wasn't a foul snooker".

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Yes but unfortunately once he played the shot its still a foul which ever way you look at it, I guess I had to be there to judge it fully...

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Again, you refer to questions asked, which would be fine if a question had actually been asked...by your own admission he said "I'll nominate..." That is a statement, not a question....

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No need for the ref to say yes then if he wasn't being asked a question.....in a friendly league I think the correct decision was made by the secs. With a professional ref it wouldn't have happened and I doubt you would have got back to the table.

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here's one for ya which actually happened in my singles semi final match, i played a deliberate foul and left my opponent in a foul snooker to which my he simply asked to pick up the white without stating it was a foul snooker, the ref has then looked at him and said sorry i cant do that which then prompted my opponent to start thinking about what he needed to say so he could pick up the white. After several attempts he finally got the wording right to which the ref allowed him to pick up the ball... Surely this is coaching, in my eyes the ref should should have picked up the ball to the players request then once the player had struck the ball called a foul as he did not call a foul snooker.. am i right or wrong?...

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and what makes you think that i know the Rules in the first place Peter .... lol. When I last played competitive pool in this league back in 2002 we was playing the old epa rules so after a 10 year break and coming back into competitive play I'm like a new boy on the block and learning the world rules, but thanks for sharing that info re our match lol lol

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ok...guess I have to come clean...I tried to keep this anonymous so that all opinions were objective, unfortunately Ben has let the cat out of the bag....therefore I can confirm that I was player 1, Ben's team mate Andy Bentley was player 2, and our team secretary, Steve Izatt was the referee...

There have been a lot of good posts on here to give me food for thought, although I think Ben's argument has flawed logic, and appears to me to be based on the "you agreed - it's fair - it's right - you lost - stop bitching and get over it" approach. Yes I did agree at the time, and nothing I do or say will change what happened. The intention when opening this debate was to be able to give a clear and definitive answer should it ever happen again, and hopefully to expand the knowledge of other site users.

Our league rules make it quite clear that the onus is on the player to make the correct call - not the referee -, which clearly did not happen in this case. However, the issue is clouded by the fact that Steve feels he has given Andy the wrong guidance and feels partly responsible. I would actually suggest he has done the right thing. A statement was made to him and he confirmed the statement for all watching (thus confirming he has heard the player call), in the same way that he would do when a player nominates colours when after potting from the break. To have said anything contrary would have given Andy the idea he was doing the wrong thing, and is therefore coaching.

If Andy had just got down and played the shot without saying anything, the penalty would have been two shots, so why should it change just because he told Steve he was playing the wrong shot?

Therefore, unless someone can provide a compelling argument to the contrary, the next time this occurs I will be advising "foul, two visits to the oncoming player", WHOEVER the participants may be.

Thank you all for your input.

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We play in a game that is 'by-n-large' an amature sport, so the refs are also amature, we should play the game in a good spirit nature, in my opinion, if a player doesn't know the rules, explain them to him! Coaching, please,..behave, the best thing in these instances is common sense, if you really need the rules to come to your rescue in a game at this level, your really not as good as you thought you were!

Rainbow
:angel:

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i do not claim to no the rules but i would say logic dictates that a foul isa foul irrregardless ov whether the ref as not helped matters,surely player 2 has fouled n player 1 gets 2shots :angel:

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Ok... just to clarify something.... perhaps slightly different....

Player 1 fouls and leaves a foul snooker. Player two asks for the cue ball or says 'free ball' without asking for a 'foul snooker'. Does the ref hesitate and say 'can't do that'. Or does the ref do as been asked and then call a foul. If the second one.... at what point does the ref call foul...

Sorry if this has been answered already... got a little lost in the post above lol. The whole area though is rather grey and perhaps needs clarifying.

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In my opinion the only common sense post on this thread was made by rainbow.

It's just a game

Yeah everyone should know the rules, but not everyone takes it so serious & so are a little vague on the rules.

When the guy playing the shot said "i nominate that ball" & the ref didn't stop him, anyone else from the other team watching could have simply stepped in & advised the player he couldn't do that as it was no longer a foul snooker after he had picked up the ball. This would have been the sporting & friendly thing to do & then the player could have continued by playing a legal shot & the game could have continued.

Why did everyone just stand there & let it happen, do you people really want to win a game of pool like that ?

I find it all a little sad to be honest, thought this was a gentlemens pool league.

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i believe the rules r there to stop arguements n yes chris we all no wat the gentlemanly things r but m8 its down to each player to no the rules n call a foul upon his self if he as committed 1 n if he as accidently done 1 then ITS STIL A FOUL so dont argue accept it learn the rules..if ur excuse is that u dont no the rules then ur askin for others to turn a blind eye while u actually cheat..its down to each player to not b so lazy n learn the rules then none ov this would happen,the ref is there to call fouls but many times players call them on themselves,in this case there woz clearly sum confusions but a player as not played by the rules n as committed a foul so put ur hands up accept it n ul no better next time....a foul is a foul :angel:

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like i said earlier i do not claim to no the rules but i believe i no most if not all,if i wer player 2 i would ov accepted id failed to make the correct calls n given player1 2shots,i actually think player1 as the right to b pisd off as hes gone from avin 2 shots to avin to re-rack the frame bcoz his opponant as played a foul shot n not accepted it...sori to say this but player2 as actually cheated,by not accepting hes fouled...:angel:

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the fact is once the foul had happened no one was really sure what to do next so thats when after talking to both players and team secs and ref a re rack was decided upon and agreed by all.if anyone had a problem with that they could have said but no one did so the match continued in a civil manner. and for your wisdom jacko once foul was pointed out the player was well aware of his mistake but i dont see how this makes it cheating as you put it? i call it an honest mistake! and brooker i make you spot on with your post fella... .

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Brooker is spot on.

But I thought you would know the rules by now, Sharky.

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i dont mean it ina nasty way but surely if u play a foul shot n dont giv ur opponant 2shots that is kinda cheating is it not...im not saying it woz delibrate as there woz sum confusion n yes m8 i av much wisdom n morals...play by the rules during each frame(even if sum seem harsh) n this game is simple n we wont get any arguments or bad feelings...i promise u im not avin a dig at any1 but just use the rules correctly n there aint no hassle is there :angel:

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thing is jacko even jason cook who has been a ref at semis and finals for many years was unsure what to do so you can hopefully see the dilemma...and as for me once a foul was called i didnt have a clue what was going on so was quite happy to let the team secs and ref make the decision they felt was right in the circumstances for right or wrong. but apology accepted and i do see your point of view.

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Rule 60 of our general playing procedures states:

"All fouls must be called by the referees only unless the player addressing the table calls his/her own foul."

Given that the refereee(s) had agreed that the Shark could play a nominated ball and the Shark clearly wasn't going to call a foul on himself because until the error had been pointed out by Statto he was unaware of the problem the fairest thing to do seemed to be to agree that the frame be re-started from scratch.

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"All fouls must be called by the referees only unless the player addressing the table calls his/her own foul."


This would suggest that if a player fouls & he knows he has fouled & everyone watching the game knows he has fouled, apart from the referee's who don't see it so don't call it.

The player can then carry on without calling a foul on himself. This is not breaking the rules, it only states that all fouls must be called by the referre only, unless the player calls it on himself, it doesn't state the player "must" call it on himself.

If i won a game like this & then said to my opponent you should know the rules, i don't have to call a foul on myself & as long as the referee's don't see it & call it i can carry on.

Would this make winning the frame ok, because i haven't broken the rules.

Answer is NO

I should call the foul on myself because it's the fair, sporting & gentlemanly thing to do, & i think the same would have applied to advise the player he couldn't play the shot he stated before he played it in the scenario in this thread.

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I think the point some people are missing is that player 2 COULD play the shot he nominated. It's a straighforward DF! The referee, or indeed anyone else, can't tell a player not to play a DF. The fact that he chose to announce it is irrelevant.

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I think the point some people are missing is that player 2 COULD play the shot he nominated. It's a straighforward DF! The referee, or indeed anyone else, can't tell a player not to play a DF. The fact that he chose to announce it is irrelevant.

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Player one pots one of his balls, but also pots one of player 2's balls, and leaves a foul snooker. Player 2 asks correctly for a foul snooker, and takes a pick up.

No problem.

The cue ball goes behind the baulk line, and player 2 nominates one of player 1's balls.

Player 2 needs to ask for a foul snooker, before nominating a ball. Nominating a ball without requesting a foul snooker from behind the baulk line is a player error, not a referee error.

The referee here can acknowledge the nomination, but has not been asked to make a ruling as to whether the player is still foul snookered.

Had the referee made an incorrect call, and the balls could not be replaced to where they were before that error, then a re-rack might have been appropriate, but in this case the referee simply agreed that the player had nominated a ball, which was not an error as such.

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A lot of debate has occurred since I last looked at this thread, having believed my last post would close it....how wrong could I be???

I will run through the scenario again for everyone's benefit...I play a shot which accidentally ends up leaving a foul snooker....Andy Bentley correctly asks for it, and asks for a pick up...he puts the cue ball behind the baulk line and nominates one of my balls WITHOUT asking again for a foul snooker. Steve Izatt (my team secretary) repeats the call. Andy plays the shot, and a few seconds later the penny drops with Steve that Andy has made a foul, and this is where the confusion started...

Steve believes that by repeating Andy's call he is confirming that it is a legal shot, and believes that it is his fault Andy has played a foul. I state that it should be a straight two shots for the foul (and the balls are available to clear), however Steve's misplaced guilt has already prompted him to offer the re-rack...in terms of the decision making process I am in a minority of 1, so there is no point me continuing the debate. Steve offered a re-rack which Tony Baker readily accepted (you don't look a gift horse in the mouth!), so there was the agreement...

In short, I was screwed over (not deliberately!!!) by my team secretary, there was no cheating by anyone, despite the fact it was very advantageous for Andy to have a re-rack...as for advising the mistake, Steve didn't realise till after the shot was played, and if you have to start helping someone with Andy's ability and experience, you might as well remove the coaching rule....

There are no sour grapes here, just wanting to be sure that my confidence in being right was not misplaced...and it wasn't!!":D

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The only way to resolve this is to find out what the correct call from a ref would be if someone says "ill nominate that as my free ball" before he calls a foul snooker. If the correct call is "yes, ok" then you should of had two shots. If it is anything else then it is refereeing error and a re-rack/re positioning should happen.

Perhaps you should of had two shots but if the same issue comes again in our league i'd vote for a re-rack again whatever the right choice.

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It has always annoyed me,that the rules are so rigid,if I see an opponent getting down to take a shot at the start of a game,more often than not I will whisper in his ear "nominate". What the fcuk does it matter if you say foul snooker or any other derivation if everybody knows what you mean.This game meant to be fun and it used to be about potting balls,now its about rigid rules and terminology. Having said that if an experienced side like the Cuemasters forget to nominate tonight I will be shouting at the ref like a Sri Lankan spinner on Methadone.Ps Paul is right its a foul.

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think rasfas n bink av hit the nail on the ed....hope wer all a bit wiser from now on in n every1 nos u av2 make the correct calls or sadly the rules may bite ur arse...we all wana just play pool but we must abide by the rules once the frame as begun :angel:

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Understand where you are coming from Ben, but the rules make it quite clear that it is the player's responsibility to make the correct call...the referee is in no-man's land if the player makes a wrong call...if he tells him it is a wrong call, then it could be called coaching...even if I was refereeing the singles final and that situation arose, the only safe course of action for a referee is to acknowledge the call, and then call the foul afterwards...the player cannot complain as he has not made the correct call...

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But the ref was from the opposition so it is'nt coaching.

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true point mr shanks but whats done is done and now we are all a bit more wiser through this experience..

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if you want a qualified refs opinion...;)
once the ball is in hand and the player asks for a foul snooker, if the ref agrees it and there are NO objections, then it stands whatever the outcome. the player continues with his visits. if the opposition knows it will be a foul and keeps quiet hoping for an advantage then they are too late, it must be called BEFORE the shot is played. IF THE REF SPOTS HIS MISTAKE OR IS ADVISED BEFORE THE SHOT IS PLAYED THEN THE REF CAN CHANGE HIS CALL, fouls cannot be backdated. in this instance as no-one knows any rules, you could have re-racked, -same player breaks as if the frame never happened, OR replace the balls to their positions because one player may not want a re-rack and lose any advantage, this way if a player knowingly fouled or diddnt call knowing the rules were wrong they would not benefit.

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Everyone knows you're a cheat, just that you got caught for once.;)

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lol @Lakeball. Have you actually read ANY of this thread?

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That's not nice shanks...ps how was ur match against the eagles last night.? :o lol

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lol, seems every time there is a rule dispute you get pages of opinions and accusations and it usually ends up as a re-rack anyway.

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That's why I put a smiley thing in. It was a nightmare.