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a) The order of the Break-Off is determined by the flip of a coin in the first frame and the winner has the choice of break then thereafter the break-off of each subsequent frame will alternate.

I was just having a quick read through the rules, to see if I'd missed any changes for this season, and came across this one....

This appears to be a HUGE change. Just wondered how many other secretaries were aware of this AND are actually following it. It appears that everyone should be!!

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it's not a big change but a good one imo as it's fair for the team...
but does the coin get flipped before the order is written down?
the problem i can see is certain players could break every game giving them an unfair advantage in the individuals!

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The single toss-up at the start of a match was only ever intended to apply to singles and doubles matches

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It does not apply to team matches

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Correct. As the Proposer of this new rule, I can confirm it was only for Singles & Doubles KO matches (i.e. where it's a best of 3 or 5, to negate the need for a second coin toss in a decider). It was never intended, or suggested, to affect the league matches, where a coin toss is done before each frame.

The proposal was voted in on that basis, so the league matches are unaffected.

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Hey Steve, I think I may have mentioned this rule change to you over the weekend which was voted in at the last AGM and brought about by Mr. Stallard and his seconder.
I have spoken to a few secretaries since the start of the summer season and all of whom are unaware of this change.
I mentioned this changed to the Dukes last week before the start of our match and I think they thought I was winding them up but agreed to play it that way.
As you now know Steve, it is set in stone, although I can't rememeber if it is a trial throughout this summer season and to be spoken about again at the next AGM.
It is the responsibilty of all Secretaries to be advised of this change and to advise their team mates accordingly.
In reply to Andye, yes it can prove to be an advantage to a team if the coin is flipped before the score card has been filled out although there is nothing within the new rule to say when the coin is to be flipped.
I think in all fairness, Secretaries will have to apply some sportsmanship here and flip the coin when the first 5 of both teams have been entered on the card and that it is the responsibility of the home Secretary to check that this as been done with no pending names left blank and then flip the coin to start the match.
There is no re-flip of the coin to start off the second set but a continuation of break order from the first set.

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alternate break for singles/doubles has been there since day one...
the only people who ask for a flip in deciders are those who lost the original flip and are basically cheating to gain an advantage and trying to pull a fast one...!
common sense to me...

regarding a team flip at the start i think either works, team written down or not... just another good addition to team tactics!

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Blimey !!!!
These new posts have come in since I posted mine and one from the proposer of the new rule himself.
I guess I shall have to go back and re-read again and see exactly what this new rule is applying to.

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The AGM General notes clearly state that the "New" toss of the coin ruling is applied only to Singles, Doubles and KO competitions....so for that reason we......are not using it in the 10x frame match fixtures.

Supersav :juggle:

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Hi Mark,
I thought I was going to have to stand corrected but I don't.
Maybe there was a misunderstanding by all those Secretaries who were present at the AGM where you proposed this change and we voted for what a lot of us believed it to be this season.
Also I think the top table may have misunderstood.
An extract from Mr. Halsey dated March 2011, reads as follows:-
"Can you be advised of a Rule Change being implemented from this season as voted in at the last general meeting of the Winter League in February":-
RULE 25a.
" The order of Break-Off is determined by the flip of a coin in the first frame and the winner has the choice of break, then thereafter the break-off of each subsequent frame will alternate".
It also appears this way in the 2011 edition of the General Playing Procedures & Rules.
I guess we have to stick with this change now for this Summer League and then pass our comments on at the next General meeting.

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i'm in disbelief that there was ever a rule to flip again in a decider... what plank thought up that?

good to see it in the KO team event, hopefully that will move on to league team fixtures in the future!

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I was at the AGM and it was clearly stated that it was for the singles and doubles knockout competitions only.
I don't think there was a rule in place previously and I could never understand why some people insisted on spinning for the decider.

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I see nowhere in writing where it states that this new ruling only applies to Team, Singles & Doubles KO's ! It's in general applying to all competitions.

At such an early stage of this Summer League, I see that there is much confusion about what is what and it would appear that matches are about to be played incorrectly according to the rules.
I know for sure what rules I will be advising my team mates to play and of course the opposition. I no dout believe that there will be some disagreement or discussions on this point and therefore I shall be carrying the 2011 rules and extract with me.

I think now that it is a case of the proposer and the League Secretary to discuss this point and advise us all accordingly.

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This is not the proposal that was raised and voted on, so it's the wording of the rules that should change. It was never my intention as proposer, nor the understanding or agreement of those present and voting at the AGM to change the league match coin toss. It was only ever for KO competitions where there is a deciding frame.

Here's my proposal, which is the one voted in:

Proposal submitted for discussion at AGM on 10 February 2011
Proposed by: Mark Stallard (Goodfellas)
Seconded by: Marc Rowson (Rileys Rack Pack)Coin Toss for breaking in Singles & Doubles KO Competitions:
In the Singles and Doubles KO Competitions, a coin is tossed to decide breaking order before the match begins and frame breaking then alternates.

If the score goes to a tie-break (i.e.1-1 for a best of 3 or 2-2 for a best of 5 etc) then it is currently accepted practice to toss a coin again to decide who breaks in the final frame (This is, however, not written in the League Rules or the Constitution, so its origin is unknown).

I propose that there only be one coin toss, at the start, and the winner of that decides the breaking order, without the additional coin toss in the event of a tie-break. This seems more logical, as in the event of a tie break, both players would have had equal number of breaks anyway, so tossing again makes the original coin toss irrelevant.

I will raise this with Mark H, as it's only a matter of changing the wording in the rules. It's a Word document, it's not written in stone, so we don't have to go a whole season playing by an incorrect rule just because it's been worded slightly erroneously. It can easily be corrected and re-iterated when this week's league tables are issued. It was only the Singles that was voted on so that's the only change. If we were to alternate through the league matches too, that'd be a whole new proposal, which I didn't (and wouldn't) suggest.

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i think we should flip a coin to see what team flips the coin!

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... and if you've got more than one coin in your pocket, you have to flip to see which one you're going to flip.

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So therefore I am correct in what I've read and abided to the current rules correctly !
I fail to understand how others in these posts are saying that they have read such & such or believe it to be such when I see it nowhere in the literature that I have from the League.
Anyways, it does'nt matter now and you accept that there is a misunderstanding somewhere.
It may well be a word document and so easy to change and advise Secretaries in the next mailshot. The point is,what did Secretaries actually believe that they were voting for at the General meeting ?
I don't wish to drag this on as it can go on for ever.
How do we play this evenings match ? The way the rules say or do we breach that and take it upon ourselves to go back to the old method, i.e flip of the coin for every frame ?

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Croydon pool league ain't FIFA , that rule sounds like a good thing IMO and I think majority would say the same why not keep that new rule in place and try it out for the summer season as it is the fairest way to have a match played and that was the one thing missing from the format! If it goes well as I'm certain it will then we can put it in to the winter league next season. Simple!

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Steve, if you read the proposals and minutes, you'd know it only referred to the individual ko comps.

It was made very clear at the AGM and there was no suggestion of it affecting league matches.

As for this evening's match, I'd advise you play it as usual, as that's the way it should be. It's not a breach of the rules, it's a mis-understanding. Nothing has changed for the league matches.

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It is certainly not the first ,and I'm sure that it will not be the last time that a clerical error has been made by a league officer. It's just one of those circumstances when a level of ambiguity has been created . I'm sure that the matter will be satisfactorily resolved once it has been brought to the attention of the committee .

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Consider it done.

I've already emailed Mark to clarify it asap. In the meantime, you can take it from me, as a Committee member.

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Ok, thanks Mark.
And thanks to Metin aswell.
I think for tonights match, we as a team will discuss it with the visiting team and play to what we all agree upon.
I'm sure by next weeks match we will all be further advised and know what rule to play.

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Sorted. All Secretaries will have received an email from Mark, which reads...

Be advised that the alternate break-off is for Singles & Doubles KO matches only. Apologies for the confusion but no one picked it up when this ruling was sent out for proofiing prior to the season starting. The League sheets will carry a permanent reminder of this for the remainder of this season

Regards
Mark Halsey