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Posted by Fat-Dart on 12-02-2009 19:49

Excellent outcome at the Half-season AGM last night, with the 60 second rule being voted in, for a Summer Season Trial, by a majority of 19/7.

There'll undoubtedly be some teething issues while people get used to the concept, although I'm sure it'll go smoothly for the vast majority. As has been said many times before, 1 minute is a long time to play a shot and a lot longer than most people ever need, so it won't even affect most people most of the time. It's the slower players that the rule was designed to expedite and anyone who's played against my team will know we have one of the worst offenders (I'm not going to name Rob 'The Cat' Cogar personally - oops too late).

Posted by Fat-Dart on 13-02-2009 00:11

longshanks wrote:
How will it work? Will there be a timer plus ref for each game?

With Interleague, the Home team keeps time, as well as reffing and the Away team ref.

As it's a trial for the Summer, it'll probably work best if both teams have a ref and seperate timer to avoid any problems with people missing stuff they should have been watching on the table while they're fixated on watching the stopwatch.

Don't see how people think it'll be the cause of arguments really. It's in the rules and it's not hard to do. Take more than 60 seconds, it's a foul. No argument there.

Posted by longshanks on 13-02-2009 04:55

It's not so much the arguments, it's that in most games the refs don't pay a great deal of attention unless asked to decide on a total snooker etc, If you're timing games you will have to be a lot more focused on the game. For most players it's a social night out and you dont want to spend it looking at a stopwatch.

Having said that, it's been voted in and it is a trial., so we will have to see how it goes. Other leagues in Surrey have timing as optional, presumably agreed between captains/secretaries. Some players should perhaps always be on the clock.

Posted by Pondlife on 13-02-2009 18:20

#10

Apparently that is the rule. The clock starts as soon as the balls have come to rest from the previous visit. If the oncoming player isn't around,it could cause a problem. Players have to be constantly aware of the need to ask for a time-out for any occasion that they will be unable to complete their visit within the proscribed time limit. In some of our matches,towards the latter part of the evening,some of our players have trouble finding the table,let alone having to worry about the time restrictions It is supposed to be a social event,isn't it ?

Posted by JugglingSpence on 13-02-2009 18:33

#11

I think it might be a good idea if it is optional but if not then it would be a bit much for a PUB LEAGUE. I think it is unnecessary but if it was voted in by a majority then it here.

Just out of interest, how many secretaries speak with their teams about proposals before they go to the AGM? By the look of this thread I don't think it is too many...

Also, how many time-outs do you get?

Posted by miq on 13-02-2009 19:14

#12

This is why this is a stupid rule for this league. I agree with the inclusion of the rule from Interleague and above, I'd be amazed if this runs smoothly and all teams adhere to it.

In Interleague, the time is re-set immediately after the shot has been played, the timer has to give an audiable 30 second warning and timeouts are allowed if the player can't physically play the shot, say if someone is already playing a shot on an adjorning table. The player has to call out 'timeout' and the timer has to call out 'time running' when the player is in a position to play it, probably not an issue in a single table pub but I can imagine the fun to be had on an average night in Suzy Q's.

Edited by miq on 13-02-2009 19:22

Posted by Pondlife on 13-02-2009 19:38

#14

I must say that I was sceptical about the world rules when they were introduced. With the benefit of hindsight I can see that I was right to be concerned. They are a charter for cheats and now we are going to have the additional benefit of being able to cheat faster. It is probably going to be one more nail in the Croydon pool league coffin. The excuse for introducing the time constraints was that they are part of the world rules. That says it all. As I've said before these rules are played in England and Australia-nowhere else !! The next natural progression will be complaints from publicans who watch pool teams disappearing just after 9. We could then perhaps arrange a darts competition after every pool match to make us stay out longer. And they call it progress !! :|

Posted by Pondlife on 13-02-2009 19:55

#16

Shark,I have never known a player to turn up after 10 o'clock to play one game of pool. Your man explained to me that he worked for a bookmakers and that there had been evening racing. It later transpired that he had a doubles match to play. He obviously deliberately arrived that late because he knew that his doubles could not start until the team events had finished . I really cannot believe that this frivolous attitude is allowed within the league rules. He will certainly need to speed things up when the timing rules are introduced. By the way,once I had established that it was legal for him to play,the game went ahead even though your player was happy to concede . We must abide by the rules at all times,even if they're designed by idiots !!

Posted by longshanks on 13-02-2009 20:17

#17

That's not the case Pat so get your facts right. We only had five available players, including Dave. Dave texted me earlier in the day to say that someone had gone sick at work and he would have to cover them, which meant he would not be there till 9.30. He later texted me to say he might not be there till nearer 10.00. The fact is that he was there well before the last frame was played and we had already conceded the 5th game. Personally I wouldn't care what the rules said, I would rather see a game played than claimed and I know that your team agreed with me.

To quote you from your earlier post, "it's supposed to be a social event isn't it?"

Edited by longshanks on 13-02-2009 20:19

Posted by andye on 13-02-2009 20:28

#18

i must admit i think it's uneccessary to bring in this rule, it's not like everyone is on here moaning about every match taking too long...
they'll be people bending these rules and there will be rows...

is the rule optional?

it needs to be as some teams/players don't need it and it's a pain to police
but then on the other hand will cause friction when the stopwatch is brought out... so you can't win either way!!!

i think it takes the tension away from matches which is part of what we all like...

this hasn't been thought through enough...

in a noisy pub what happens if you don't hear properly?
if someone shouts '30 seconds' on your backswing and you miss the pot (trust me this will happen)?
i could go on...

and pondlife, i wouldn't moan too much about it yourself as it's probably some of your team that have caused people to want it!!

Posted by Spud on 13-02-2009 20:54

#19

It's only a handful of people in the hundreds that play in our league that are consistently slow, so the timing rule is aimed at a minority, but will now affect the majority.

Eagles / Prop on tuesday was a very tense affair at times, as should be with a top of the table clash, and I'm sure several playeres exceeded 60 seconds shot time, but the occasion warrented it.

At Interleague & County level, it's a far more serious standard, you know what you're getting when you sign on.

At local level, as already touched on, it's a socialble night out, an I think it's too harsh a rule, which will simply convince people (Already deserting pubs & clubs in their droves) into staying indoors.

With regards to the world rules being a bad thing, I think the subscription of teams would have been the same regardless of the rules, in fact the CDPL, had it stayed old rules, would already be defunct, as teams would have left to form a world rules league.

Posted by ThePower on 14-02-2009 05:28

#22

Sociable night out? Not in Division 1. Who the fuck are you lot kidding - apart from yourselves! All this 'its a social league' bullshit is only true if you mean having a social night out amongst yourselves!!!

Believe me, Division 1 is not a social arena. In the last 2 years maybe it has got better but apart from a mutual respect for oneanother thats about it. How many teams have a beer after the match together? Thats being social - not walking in saying hello and retreating to the farthest corner of the room. Personally, I like that. We are there to win first and foremost so you'll appreciate 'social' and Eden has never worked as a combination.

Though it appears Longshanks and Pat want to change the mould, and I am happy to embrace any plans they have to make my Tuesday night out more opponent friendly and sociable.....

As for the 60 second rule. Isn't Divsion 1 in Croydon blessed with World ranked players, International players, County players, Interleague players, plus players who would roll into most County and Interleague teams if they could be arsed to pick a cue more than just on a Tuesday night, and of course as a league we have produced the 2008 ''National'' team champions? The 60 second rule should be in force in this divsion regardless of whether you are a fan or not. Most of the players play it outside the current Croydon set up. If you want tension - then you still have the option of that. 60 second rule could mean MORE frames being introduced.

Aren't most other leagues in our County using the 60 second rule? In fact haven't those leagues used the rule effectively and introduced more frames per match night as a result of using the clock.

Whether the 60 second rule works outside Div 1 is another argument all together. I don't think Div 1 should just have the rule, so everyone should get on with it and adapt.

If you want 'social' night out there is another local league, it's called the Bromley Pool League. Join it, and I'll bet you'll all be running back by the time 30 seconds has been called.

Edited by ThePower on 14-02-2009 05:56

Posted by chuckles on 14-02-2009 19:14

#26

The people on here saying they "would" have opposed the 60-second rule don't have a leg to stand on. You had the choice to vote but didn't.
As for ref's paying attention, if that is the case the one not paying attention has no say in any decisions. It isn't that hard to watch the game, with or without a stopwatch in your hand.
Time outs cannot be called out when ever the player wants. It can only be used for legitimate reasons. i.e. when a player from another table is in the way, waiting for a ref's decision, wanting a rest that cannot be immediately found etc, etc. Not things like phone calls, getting a pint, going to the toilet etc, etc. All these thing can be done before your game starts.

Spud wrote:
It's only a handful of people in the hundreds that play in our league that are consistently slow, so the timing rule is aimed at a minority, but will now affect the majority.

As for the above quote. Have you tried playing under the 60-second rule? For the "hundreds" you mention, it won't effect at all, as 60 seconds is an age to play a shot. Hopefully when the dust has settled, we may even be able to add another set of five and put a stop to the 5-5 draws and guarantee a winner every week.

Posted by andye on 14-02-2009 21:22

#27

chuckles wrote:
Time outs cannot be called out when ever the player wants. It can only be used for legitimate reasons. i.e. when a player from another table is in the way, waiting for a ref's decision, wanting a rest that cannot be immediately found etc, etc.

Hopefully when the dust has settled, we may even be able to add another set of five and put a stop to the 5-5 draws and guarantee a winner every week.

at county once i asked for a time out to tuck in my shirt so it wouldn't touch some of the balls and got told i couldn't have one....
i then asked for the white and all 15 other balls to be cleaned.... i was then allowed the time out for tucking in my shirt...
there's always loopholes and people will find them if they want to!

what's wrong with a 5-5 draw, some matches deserve a draw. it makes a win more valuable as you have to win by 2 frames hence the odd fluke can't win a match...
if anything i'd want our existing 7 player format but play twice and have 14 frames!

Posted by The_Saxtonator on 14-02-2009 22:07

#29

tomt wrote:
So was the 60 second rule voted in?
If so in all leagues?

It was agreed at the half year agm held last on Wednesday Tom

The rule will be applied across the whole league on a trial basis for the summer

If teams do not want to proceed with the trial after the summer league, a proposal can be entered for the winter agm to be held in September. If the proposal to remove the rule is carried it will be removed. If no proposal is received in writing, or the proposal is not carried, the rule will also apply for the forthcoming winter season

Posted by Sting on 15-02-2009 00:27

#30

andye wrote:
strangely enough i think the eden will be the team most effected by the 60 second rule...
the eagles, hotshots and prop are used to it with the interleague/county/internationals they have...
whereas the eden players don't have the same natural ability and are grafters, which in my experience in the past have won them games through a lot of thought on each shot, quite often taking more than 60 seconds...

i cant help but love this comment about the mighty eden the week before we play the eagles. Being called grafters and not naturally talented. Most of our players are blessed with large dollops of natural talent but unfortunately have this thing called "a life" that prevents them from playing pool 5 times a week and sleeping with their pool cue. If our players played more than once a week we would walk the croydon league year after year. What we lack is consistency which comes from something we dont have also known as "practice". The previously mentioned thing called "a life" prevents this. Beating the hot shots who are undoubtedly the best team in croydon if not the
UK season after season surely proves this.

The last time i saw the naturally talented eagles playing they were getting hammered by the bloodhouds 8-2. Those bloodhouds must have some really talented players......

and for my 2 pennies worth i used to play 20 frames of pool a night in the edens birthplace the wheatsheaf when i was 18 and had no problem taking out allegedly talented mugs with only 5 seconds a shot let alone 60 so i say BRING IT ON

Posted by andye on 15-02-2009 01:48

#31

Sting wrote:

lol...
my post was actually a compliment not a dig!!!
don't give it all that 'life' cobblers,
i probably practice the most in the eagles team and thats 2/3 days a week max and only for a few hours. most of the others are once a weekers

most of our players are capable of 100 breaks at snooker, i expect if you added your teams highest breaks together it would probably come to around the same figure...!!!

obviously the last time you watched us wasn't last week!

hotshots were the best team over a season ago... so i presume the hall of fame isn't working yet!

oh, and by the way, i only sleep with my cue in yarmouth...!!!

Posted by Truey on 16-02-2009 21:09

#32

The only player in the ego's who is a once a weeker is probably S.Potter the rest all play snooker/county/interleague & comps etc all the time so of course your standard is going to be higher as you play/practice consistently, but if you were all that good why are you all working for a living & not on TV playing the game :o
natural ability as you put it is not only a thing that Hot shots/prop/ego's have....
i am sure a lot of players are gifted but just can't practice enough to get to a new level....I am pretty sure if i personally played more than 1 or 2 frames a week my standard would improve as would a whole load of our team & others in this league....either way looking forward to being shown a night of natural ability tomorrow ;)

Posted by Shaggy on 16-02-2009 21:27

#33

I dont personally see anything wrong with the rule coming in. I have never been time fouled in my life and have never felt the need to spend more than a minute on a shot, even prior to world rules.

You dont have to be talented to be good at pool, if you put the white in the middle of the table then their is virtually no pot that is impossible, and most are simple.....

Regarding the amount of play, I play considerably less than Paul Saxton for example, so whilst you improve with practice often it means diddly squat if you dont have a certain flair in the first place..

Just to confirm, I play 2 frames of pool on Tuesday (last week was the exception, I had a practice), 2 frames of league snooker a week, 20 frames once a month at County, and havent played interlegue for best part of a year. 0 Single leagues and half a dozen comps a year. Probably considerably less than most people would think.

Potter is our slowest player, however he is also our most aggressive, and that usually gets overlooked. Often players become far to negative when they think too much. Nick Faldo called it 'paralysis by analysis', which sums up a number of players I can think of. Considering your options is one thing, thinking 5 minutes over a shot is completely unnecessary.

And in any event almost all the leagues I know run a watch on agreement, or if wone team has a strong desire too. In many instances it should not even be necessary.

Posted by EmDee on 18-02-2009 18:27

#38

EmDee wrote:

Fat-Dart wrote:
Sun headline: "ThePower in sensible, well thought out post Shocker".

lol

I fully agree with ThePower in this case.

I'm off for a lie down.

:|

Upon further reflection I have decided that all is well and that I don't really agree with him. Phew. Spending the social fund on stopwatches is not the way forward. Luke makes a good point about singles and doubles matches too.

It's a social league and we should try to keep it that way instead of making it more serious. Although that's not to say that I condone people taking ages to play a shot, I'm well against that!

Maybe a warning rule of some sort for games that are taking ages. Only break out the stopwatch on request of the opponent or something?

Edited by EmDee on 18-02-2009 18:34

Posted by Sass on 18-02-2009 18:44

#39

chuckles wrote:
The people on here saying they "would" have opposed the 60-second rule don't have a leg to stand on. You had the choice to vote but didn't.

Sorry for having a life away from pool!!! :lol:

I simply think it's overkill for a pub pool league to have this rule. In practice the two secretaries will ask eachother whether they want to use a stop watch at the start of the match and whatever they agree on will be what will happen.

Posted by Luke on 18-02-2009 18:54

#41

Billy wrote:

Luke wrote:
Just out of interest, how will it work in a singles or doubles matches?

Its only coming in for team matches, not singles or doubles.

Cool, cos that would just be awkward.

I reckon half the matches wont even see a timer anyway as a lot of teams wont want to hold a stopwatch throughout the matches. Its definateley gotta be something for the 2 secretaries to decide before the match starts.

Posted by ThePower on 19-02-2009 05:24

#44

Sass wrote:
I simply think it's overkill for a pub pool league to have this rule.

Pub pool in Croydon died when the old EPA rules / the revised format rules we played were replaced with World Rules.

You may get the odd pub pool team in the lower divisions but lets be honest there is no place anymore for it in Croydon.

The vote at the last AGM was heavily stacked in favour of the clock and the majority of those who voted were from the lower divsions and probably were good old fashioned pub teams!

Posted by Brooker on 19-02-2009 05:34

#45

Im Glad the rule has come in. I think its a lot more than a few that take over a minute to play a shot. I regularly see players who's natural game is to walk around the table chalking their cue 50 times after every shot looking all serious, even though its obvious what shot they are going to play. I think it just becomes part of their routine & this rule will make them stop.
I often think in our late games its not the lenth of the frames, its the time taken between shots. If secretaries agree not to use a stop watch then they will never know if this actually makes a difference to the lenth of matches.
As for it being a social league & all a bit of fun & a laugh, i agree with that, thats why if im in trouble in a game i just usually try & smash some leary shot that im not likely to get & just think "fu*k it if i miss & the other player clears up, its only a game" but i don't see that very often, usually a player stands there for 5-6 minutes studying what to do as if they are playing for the world champoinship, so people seem to take it a lot more seriously than suggested on this thread.

Posted by Sass on 19-02-2009 19:54

#46

The_Saxtonator wrote:

It was agreed at the half year agm held last on Wednesday Tom

The rule will be applied across the whole league on a trial basis for the summer

If teams do not want to proceed with the trial after the summer league, a proposal can be entered for the winter agm to be held in September. If the proposal to remove the rule is carried it will be removed. If no proposal is received in writing, or the proposal is not carried, the rule will also apply for the forthcoming winter season

Surely if this was voted in as a 'trial for the Summer' it would have to be proposed, seconded and carried at the AGM for it to continue for future seasons?

Edited by Sass on 19-02-2009 19:55